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jeremy @ aftershockennels

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PostSubject: ofa????   Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:42 pm

has anybody here got an ofa/pin hip on there all of there brood stock?
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pitmamma
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:49 pm

I think Patch o Pits does on hers but I am not positive. Hopefully she will read this and respond.
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Patch O' Pits

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:05 am

Yes, I have. What is it you need to know and I'll do my best to answer?

Both the OFA and Penn Hip websites are great sources of info. If you haven't take a peek at them.

http://www.offa.org/

http://www.pennhip.org/
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:18 pm

I think OFA is a problem that's more associated with staffs and other large pit-bull type breeds, a working pit bull terrier should not have reason for this kind of testing.
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Patch O' Pits

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:23 pm

It is not a working vs non-working or big vs small dog disease. It is much more complex than that and affects all sizes of dogs

http://www.pitbull-family.com/health-f4/hip-dysplasia-t433.htm
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:43 am

******** and in the years I've known and personally experienced the true WORKING AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER not show bred Staffs I have yet to find dogs bred with this problem in the breed that I know as a Pit Bull.
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shadowwolf

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:16 am

alfisher3 wrote:
*** in the years I've known and personally experienced the true WORKING AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER not show bred Staffs I have yet to find dogs bred with this problem in the breed that I know as a Pit Bull

*** Your so-called "true" APBTs are just as prone to hip, elbow, patella, etc. disorders as your "show staffs". Hate to put it to ya this way, but just because some folks on here own pit-or-staffs, true APBTs or American Staffordshire Terriers doesn't make them any less knowledgable about a breed.

Health testing is a TOOL and should definately be utilized by all. But every tool has its downfalls and the ADBA and PennHip are not God-like and not all genetics have been figured out just yet. So, folks can either use it or lose it as far as that goes. Personally speaking, all of my "show dogs" will be health tested for curiousity's sake.
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:34 am

I think this can be a good topic and some good information can be shared. let's keep the personal attacks out.

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:42 pm

I know personal opinion should not come in to play when trying to pass valuable knowledge and sorry if I stepped on any toes in the process.. But with that being sad I ask you all one question, I wonder in the 100+ years of breeding, owning, and showing working American pit bull terriers, how many times have the Colby Family done hip testing or had a issue with hip dysplasia? If you guys want the answer www.colbydogs.com and send a email to Louis himself and ask the question.
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shadowwolf

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:44 am

But here's the thing - even Lou Colby will sell dogs based soley on his name and not on the soundness of his dogs or by utilizing the testing available. A good many of the "old school" breeders out there won't shell out the bucks when they're breeding two plus litters a year - why should they? It's money in their pocket if their brood stock doesn't cost the money to health test. Did you know that Buckhide was OFA health tested? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:34 pm

Your point could be valid as well about the cost of testing, but I didn't think Hip test was too expensive, I guess the point I'm making is we all know about the origin of the pit bull, I guess I'm wondering that how can you have a disease such as hip dyspasia become so prevalent in a breed that has always been known as the hardiest breed of dog on earth. I'm not a doctor but I know that any disease has to be introduced into a population by a outside source in this case "another breed" in order to pass that specific disease into the general population. I know that most old time breeders didn't and still don't Hip test their dogs, but it's very uncommon to find hip dysplasia in smaller breeds, and the working american pit bull terrier is not a large breed at all. Oh and I seriously doubt Lou Colby would start breeding genetically faulted bulldogs, his family's name and honor are too important to him, I'm pretty sure a cur off his yard is as good as the best dogs on a lot of yards now days. But again everyone has their right to choose and their preference in their choice of dog right! Wink
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shadowwolf

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:34 pm

Because this breed will do anything for their owners - regardless of how hurt they are. Case and point - a dog in a dog fight will continue to fight even if he is dying because he wants to please his owner.

Hip, heart, elbow, patella, eyes, thyroid - it can all add up. It cost me $28 to get Ryker's cardio done plus $15 to send it into the OFA (and they STILL haven't listed it...jerks) and it's going to run me $250 at the minimum end for hips and patellas and another $30 to have his elbow's done plus submission fees to the OFA. Haven't found a thyroid clinic yet, though. CERF is a yearly one at like $50-60 at some show clinics.

I'm not saying that health testing is the be all and end all of knowledge, but it gives a good basis for breeding choices along with genetics. Personally, even if I never sent in films to the OFA for a rating, I'd at least want to know what I was getting into with owning a dog as far as potential genetic problems.

And that unfounding loyalty you have to the Colby line is exactly WHY he continues to sell dogs. If buyers were to refuse (not that many would refuse a Colby dog - health tests or no health tests - I know I damn well wouldn't) to buy from breeders who didn't health test over time, many of the reputable breeders very well might get the hint that it's a tool that is worth having for the sale of their puppies. Consumers, after all, drive market sales and buying a dog is, unfortunately, like buying a car - if we show automakers we want something different by refusing to buy a certain type then they make changes. Same thing with the purchase of a dog - regardless of how nominal and/or non-existant the fee is.
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:24 pm

Once again shadow good points and views, but no matter how game a dog is, at some point after a rough pit contest or weight pull no matter how the dog is being performance tested, he still needs a recovery time and during that recovery time you will notice if the dog has some joint problems gamesness is one thing but a severe medical condition will cripple even the most game of dogs, and for the record I'm not jocking colby dogs, but hands down their record for quality american pit bull terriers is just unmatched, if you can trace your dog back far enough I'm sure the colby blood runs thru his veins as well, b/c you do realize the first pit bull ever registered was Colby's Primo, I don't think they would write the breed standard based on any crap shoot breeding program of dogs Wink
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:50 pm

i just need to ask this one question about i have tryed to stay out of this but i have to?
would you or anyone one else have a min pin tested for hip disorders?
and if you would why would you ?

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:03 am

That is a great point Mike, I also thought I would take the Liberty to point out the breed standard and health problems for the european version of the staffordshire bull terrier, notice how Hip Dysplasia is not a common problem, and we all do agree that our beloved pit bulls were originally imported from England and Ireland http://www.staffords.co.uk/sbtbc/standard.htm so feel free to check this site out and look over which problems are associated with this breed and which ones are not.
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:14 am

Pit Bull Health
The American Pit Bull breed is a relatively hardy breed without any predisposed health conditions. Unlike many dog breeds, the American Pit Bull Terrier is not prone to hip dysplasia, patella displacement, skin allergies, or any other common health concern related to other dog breeds.

The APBT is probably one of the few dog breeds that it nor predisposed to common health issues, but that is not saying that they do not get cancer or other illnesses, they are just not predisposed to it.
something i found just want to get to the bottom of this

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:22 am

Thanks for the link and great info.

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:30 am

its really funny i have went to about 10 to 15 sites about this and all the site that were more gear to ukc standards said that that apbt was prone to hip problems but what was funny was everyone that i seen that was more adba standard or game dogs said there were no major problem with anything other than intestin issuses hmm!! thats funny cuz the ukc standard has alot bigger standard and and said some of them said that theses dogs were use as a cart dog. and i got about 30 yrs. experence with theses dogs and never have i heard that maybe just maybe ppl are breeding for size and not breeding for what the dog was suppose to do. and that is lean and fast not bulky and slow with hip problems!! oh and i called my vet today just cuz i had to and i ask him if hip problems was common in apbt and he said that it wasnt but there has been some poorly bred apbt come in and the had some problems with there hip and then i asked if the dogs were over and 80 plus and he said yes they were... dont want to make anyone mad but i think the prove is in the words here. just remember the old dog men wouldnt have bred any dog that had problems theses dogs were a prize fighter for them and they didnt need a dog that couldnt perform to the highest level.

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:36 am

Thanks for the research Mike.. So from this thread am I understanding that maybe dogs bred for show have more hip problems? And more game dogs do not have the problem? Also, for those that test and know people that test, can you give us an estimate of out of how many dogs tested were positive for HD? Just curious of that ratio.

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:43 am

i will surely fine that but we need not to put the two types of dogs in the same bowl we need to fine a way to seperate the 2 and see what happens i will put my name on the line that the true game bred dog will be very low if any cases

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:45 am

midwest_showdogs wrote:
i just need to ask this one question about i have tryed to stay out of this but i have to?
would you or anyone one else have a min pin tested for hip disorders?
and if you would why would you ?

Yes, for both hip and patellar issues. The breed is just as prone to these issues as larger dogs. It is not a size- or breed-based issue. This is a dog issue. Quit saying, "Game bred this and show-bred that." These "game-bred" dogs are still show dogs. They still compete in the ADBA conformation shows and therefore makes them "show dogs" in every sense of the word. Now, if someone is actively *matching* their dogs and nothing more then they definately wouldn't be considered show dogs for obvious reasons.

One of the biggest key problems with joints - be it hips, elbows, patellas, etc. is DJD - degenerative joint disorder.

Taken from this website: http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/hans/index.php

Osteoarthritis or degenerative joint disease (DJD) is a progressive condition in which the articular cartilage is slowly degraded and the surrounding bone reacts by producing osteophytes (Figs. 1 and 2). It is generally distinguished from inflammatory joint disease because, while inflammation may be present, it is not a central feature of the disease. The disease affects many animal species, including 20% of the canine population older than 1 year, and approximately 90% of cats over 12 years of age. Patients often have a history of earlier acute, painful, non-weightbearing lameness, but signalment, medical history, clinical signs, physical examination findings, laboratory data, and radiographic findings should all be taken into account in the diagnosis of DJD.

A patient's signalment can provide valuable information in terms of assessing the relative risk for the development of DJD. Rapidly growing large-breed puppies often are affected with developmental orthopedic conditions that can lead to osteoarthritis. These conditions include hip dysplasia, osteochondrosis, elbow dysplasia, fragmented medial coronoid process, and ununited anconeal process. Obese animals with DJD may be more likely to show clinical signs. Neutered large-breed dogs constitute another group with predisposition to the development DJD. These animals are more susceptible to cranial cruciate rupture and osteoarthritis of the stifle joint (Fig. 3). Small breed dogs often have patellar luxation or aseptic necrosis of the femoral head. Cats also can suffer from hip dysplasia and osteoarthritis.

----------------------

While this article specifically targets larger-breed dogs, it is not uncommon to see smaller dogs having issues. By sheer volume, the number of cruciate tears or patellar issues seen in APBTs is absolutely astounding. Many of these dogs are pit-or-staff crosses, however, there are a good deal of these so-called "game dogs" who also suffer from this condition. There are no concrete studies that pin-point the genetic predisposition of this issue, but it does happen and the general concensus from 90% of the articles I've read is that it is genetic in a good chunk of the cases.

Now, if all of the game-bred APBT breeders were to truly test their brood stock and the OFA database were properly maintained (at this point you can opt not to publicly show some of the data on it) on ratings it I truly believe it would no longer be about "game-bred" vs. "show bred" - it would be about breeding the best to the best to produce better which many breeders have failed to recognize or live up to and are just becoming puppy peddling crap.

And for the record, I believe the AST needs to be seperated from the APBT. I'd rather see old school vs. new school. Small dogs who don't weigh much above 55#-60# for males would be nice to see again. I love my little APBTs.
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:12 pm

thanks shadow for your info. but i never said show vs game beleive i know that the adba standard is gear toward the game standard. remeber i have almost been around theses dogs as long as you have been alive. i beleive show and game goes hand in hand. if the dog has conformation and is perfect in all area then it should be able to go threw all the riggers of a fight or many of them. what i ben saying is that ukc standard is should not be the standard of the apbt the standard says the body should be longer then it is tall. that is a no no if the dog had to fight in the ring and fought for along time the dog would get tired cuz there to much body. now if you look at a long body dog you will see in alot of the times that the dog is swayed backed. this is not a good thing for the hips and elbows and even the back cuz theres more weight on each joint and they will fail. now just to my sure everyone i dont fight my dogs at all i beleive we need to get out of that stuff and move on to make this breed the best it can be in the public eye.

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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:38 pm

Point well made and I agree with Mike's point of view, also Shadow I would like to ask, if you can reference your local Vet or a nearby Pet Smart Vet, and see how often they have had to treat a small active breed for hip problems i.e. " Jack Russell Terriers", Patterdales, Parson Russells, Lakeland Terriers, any of the small active breeds. See if your vet has ever had to treat one of these dogs for hip dysplasia? I would be interested to know if there is ever such a large case as you say it's common in both small and large breeds and it has nothing to do with the size of a dog. I think we are communicating great on this thread and sharing valuabe info among each other as well as users who might need insight or have questions related upon this particular health issue. Also is Ryker the first pit bull you ever owned or bred, he's a beautiful dog and seems to be bred pretty correct, I wouldn't think he's got a problem with his hips I wonder what would make you think any pit bull bred correctly should have this cripping disease as a common aligment or health problem.
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:10 pm

Yes the APBT is a hardy breed as compared to most. But, there is no breed who doesn't have some potential genetic issue in their line whether it be HD or something else.

I don't feel that every single genetic problem runs in every single breed. However no breed is total free and clear of possible problems. There is no PERFECT breed health wise.

IMO BYBs have brought it more to the forefront by indiscriminant breeding. However even two OFAexcellent dogs can throw an HD pup and two parents with HD may throw normal pups. I've read research on that somewhere and just can't find the link to post at the moment. So it is not a perfect science.
Like I said genetics is a complicated subject.

Legg Perthes Disease is a hip joint disease sometimes misdiagnosed or confused with HD. It runs in Jack Russel Terriers, Min pins and many other small dog.
see the link:
http://www.offa.org/lcpgeninfo.html

Info found right on the OFA site:
http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

just a couple of examples from the OFA site of little dogs that were tested and found to be dysplastic this is based on having at least 100 dogs tested
62.1 pugs
19.5 SHIH TZU
18.6 beagle
2.4 rat terrier

And
23.7 APBT
it may not be as high as some or as low as others but it is therehttp://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

The highest is the bulldog at 73.7

an Amstaffs were at 25.8 just slightly more than APBTs

Sure breeders who cull hard for defects and weaknesses by either euthanasia and or spay neuter may prevent it from being passed on... Old school breeders do not tolerate weakness. Doesn't mean they weren't there just means they were not kept or allowed to breed. I am sure some lines certainly are better than others.

You can find sites and research some with backing some just opinion for both sides of this. Good points are also made by both... So who is right? No one will ever know because those who don't test will continue there way and those who test will do it their way.

It is a tool available. It is not perfect.

JMO on it...

Good debate and info everyone!
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PostSubject: Re: ofa????   Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:20 pm

let me get in on this subject a bit. Mike and alfisher3 you both have verry good point. Case in point the american pit bull terrier HINTS THE WORD TERRIER in the name comes from size. Size is where most of the problem with hip displasia comes in to play its larger breed dogs that carry this genetic trate. If you have a true american pit bull terrier there is no reason your dog should even carry this trate it has nothing to do with money not even breeding. Its breeding practices. There is a reason these breeders do linebreeding its because they are keeping the breed pure with no outcrosses. I am sure you go to the colby's and ask them you will find they have 100% no hip problems in any of their dogs from genetics. The only hip problems i have found to come into play with these dogs and these lines is from accidental influeanced problems. This is a discuession that we have argued over the years But i asked G. hammoned the same question for a man that has 100 Plus dogs of many breeds he said there is no reason to do that kind of testing if you got an american pit bull terrier. You can go back and ask many dogmen over the years that have multiple amounts of dogs kept to the game bred lines the ture american pit bull terrier they will give you the same answer. I myself have never had a case of hipdisplasia or hip problems in any of my dogs over the years.
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