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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:47 pm

Nice post masterpiece, and I can agree that a small number of the bullies out there are Am Staffs and Am Pit Bull Terrier cross. But how can it be explained that the American Bully with a avg weight of about 75lbs on the smaller side and 100+lbs on the larger side come from two breed of pit bulls the Am Staff and the Am Pit Bull Terrier, who's avg weight range is about 25lbs being the smallest and around 65 - 70lbs max being the largest on avg? What is it that would cause such a balloon in weight and head size and just entire body appearance overall by breeding two dogs that virtually look about the same and had nearly the same standard in weight range?
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pitmamma
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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:04 pm

Don't know if this is possible or not...but here goes....If you took the 2 biggest APBT's you can find (not bully's, just the larger of the standard Apbt) and bred them..then keep repeating. Maybe you took the taller ones and bred them together, took the shortest and widest ones and bred them together. You started off with dogs within standard and started breeding for shorter, wider, etc. Technically these dogs would still be registered APBT, the breeder has just swayed from standard.
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:08 pm

you can take that trait and emphasize on that trait like the thicker apbt's and just breed and breed for that trait but also im not a breeder so i dont knwo exataly how you to breed or to get that trait to be consistant....
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:29 pm

LOL both are fine answers although my experience w/ these dogs are only near a decade so I wouldn't have the knowlege personally to acheive the same, but the few good breeders that I know said it's only possible by outcrossing w/ a different breed of dog in order to achieve this as quickly as it has b/c believe it or not when your talking about genetics and evolution, 15 years is a very very quick time for such a dramatic change in physical appearance and structure. But also the breeders I've talked w/ on this same token said it's unethical to breed a dog to be so short and heavy b/c dogs age twice as fast as we do, and just like a person that is overweight for his/her height the bones have a hard time withstanding the constant pressure thus reducing the activity level for the dog and the overall lifespan with the decrease in activity. The one breeder in particular that I got most my information from used the english bulldog as an example to prove his point about how being super short and overweight can be devasting to the dogs health as their lifespan is only about 6-8years max, and also noted the gottiline in particular having a large amount of english and american bulldog in it's appearance.
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:48 pm

true im not saying they arent "outcrossed" but isnt the APBT a mixture of breeds in the first place.... so if you outcross it with a masstive or bull dog then tecnacally your still breeding a apbt just bringing that trait out right????

lol just something that some like to ague about and i really dont care lol but some people say that and i dont know if i agree but it does make a good point
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pitmamma
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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:04 pm

Al I agree, it might not be the healthiest choice, nor one that I would prefer, just a way that it could happen and not use a different breed.
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:29 pm

Well that's true the ABPT originally came from a mixture of dogs, but for the past 150 years the ABPT has been bred to the same dogs of the same standard so I guess the answer would be NO it's not really the same. Take the Am Staff you never here of a AKC registered Am Staff topping off the scales at 85lbs, even the Am staff has been bred by standards and specifics for the past 72 years making it a conclusive breed, and no one can even attempt to pass off a AKC amstaff weighing that much or looking so out of proportion. I know we are entitled to believe what we like and we definately have a choice to choose any dog we like, well except in cases were BSL is involved, but u know what i mean. I just think it's a lot of deceit that people think they have a certain breed and their paying huge amounts of money for them not knowing the dog is mixed. And I know the usual comeback is that pit bull owners are jealous of the bully dogs size and can't afford them LOL. But I actually have a dog that goes in the same price range.
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:37 pm

I just thought of a really good point, if it were possible to enlarge a animal so fast, wouldn't this use of genetic enlargement benefit farmers more than anyone, b/c if they could increase the size of their cows by breeding the largest over a few years 15 -20 years and then create these group of cows that are now twice the size of a normal cow wouldn't that increase a huge profit for the cattle business and i'm sure some have tried and failed, it comes down to when u breed animals of likeness, etc same breed of dogs, u produce a offspring of the same not saying that sometimes there is a large pup in the litter, but even at maturity the large pup is only about 10lbs or less heavier than the next pup at maturity.
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:16 pm

ok sounds good that most real APBT are now the "pure breed" and were breed from generation to generation with no "pitcrosses of another breed" per say and that they are American pit bull terriers... while some of these bullies are mixed with bull dog or mastive (from one extreme to another) type thing

so what im trying to say is that American Pit Bull Terriers should be called and registared as American Pit Bull terriers
while these bullies (from Pocket pits to the XXL) originated from a APBT mixed or outcrossed with one of the original breeds that were combined

yeah!!! i think i did good lol so it doesnt matter the look per say but if it was out crossed with one of the orignial breed its should be called and registared as an american bully!!!!!!!!!!

now to get some of these guys to admit that they did outcross them that way is going ot be hard LMAO
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:54 pm

Actually, there was an admission on the part of Dave Wilson and then he later stated that he was mis quoted, but the original quote that he gave was that when created the Razor's Edge line he used differents breed of bulldogs and the pit bull was one of them. I found that quote while searching for info on Dave Wilson and the razor's edge line. I think after that he created something called the ABKC.
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:03 pm

Ohh and there isn't a breed called pocket pits on the books of any registry that I'm aware of, unless your referring to patterdale's and of course they are a different breed also.
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:38 pm

i remember that quote from Dave... lol
he did state that and every one flipped out lol but do you know what im trying to say when im saying that in your original question that if these different styles of pit bulls should be called American Pit Bull terriers when some dogs are WAY BULLIER then a "game style pit" . and im saying there should be but the difference shouldnt be in the look because a dog like Victor who looks like more of a APBT then most bullies should go by there peds... you know.. because obvously there were somthing thrown in there to make him so big but because he is lean and has the right head shape and that he looks like a APBT but just taller (23" to the shoulder) he should be called an American Bully or APBT?

there is nothing that is registared as a Pocket pit i dont think im just using that as an idea of the diffence its like a 40-05lb that is about 14" tall if not shorter. while some have 130lbs 23-24" tall with some 27" head you know... there is such a veriaty of different style shape, conformation that like the one guy said there are XXL pits and Bullys and Pocket pits, and what ever else is out there there will be eight new breeds (exaggeration) but im saying that if there was a way to tell these people that there dogs are American Bullies because another trait from a Bull dog was brought up in there peds then its not a APBT you know lol oh man i hope this makes sence!
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:43 am

I agree there is a definate variety within the size range of the different bulldog breeds, and I didn't know 40-50lb pit bulls were considered mini pits now days LOL that proves how much I know. I've actually saw some websites of dogs advertised to have 27" heads and so forth, but honestly and this is just my opinion when the dog is 130lbs and the heard is 26" or 27" it really doesn't look all that big the headpiece I mean b/c it seems the body overshadows it so badly and it starts to loose a lot of conformation even by bully standards. And I think your post are awesome so far you have help keep this thread going, I really appreciate all your info and response. Thanks!!!
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pitmamma
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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:49 am

Very good post. Thanks for keeping it mature Very Happy
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:08 am

pitmamma wrote:
Don't know if this is possible or not...but here goes....If you took the 2 biggest APBT's you can find (not bully's, just the larger of the standard Apbt) and bred them..then keep repeating. Maybe you took the taller ones and bred them together, took the shortest and widest ones and bred them together. You started off with dogs within standard and started breeding for shorter, wider, etc. Technically these dogs would still be registered APBT, the breeder has just swayed from standard.
to get consistent true to form breedings it would take longer than you would be around to breed them to accomplish this. Of course you will get some of what you say, but it won't be consistent, which is the mainstay of any breeding program.........consistency. You don't just undo 200 years worth of breeding in a couple or even a "few" generations without mixing in another breed.
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:14 am

Masterpiece wrote:
you can take that trait and emphasize on that trait like the thicker apbt's and just breed and breed for that trait but also im not a breeder so i dont knwo exataly how you to breed or to get that trait to be consistant....
This isn't direct at anybody, but this kind of breeding is EXACTLY what qualifies as back yard breeding at it's best.
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:14 pm

I have to say I agree w/ boogieman 100% for those type of changes in a breed to be consistent it would take a lot longer than any of us will live things like that don't happen over a 15-20 year time frame, it take many yearssssssssssssss to complete this formation and have the right consistency. Outcrosses a different breed is in my opinion the only way to speed this process up so fast.
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:23 pm

Boogieman wrote:
Masterpiece wrote:
you can take that trait and emphasize on that trait like the thicker apbt's and just breed and breed for that trait but also im not a breeder so i dont knwo exataly how you to breed or to get that trait to be consistant....
This isn't direct at anybody, but this kind of breeding is EXACTLY what qualifies as back yard breeding at it's best.

LMAO thats why im no breeder LOL i dont know the first thing about breeding i know a little enought to stay out of trouble but other then that my dogs keep it in there pants LOL
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:30 pm

alfisher3 wrote:
I agree there is a definate variety within the size range of the different bulldog breeds, and I didn't know 40-50lb pit bulls were considered mini pits now days LOL that proves how much I know. I've actually saw some websites of dogs advertised to have 27" heads and so forth, but honestly and this is just my opinion when the dog is 130lbs and the heard is 26" or 27" it really doesn't look all that big the headpiece I mean b/c it seems the body overshadows it so badly and it starts to loose a lot of conformation even by bully standards. And I think your post are awesome so far you have help keep this thread going, I really appreciate all your info and response. Thanks!!!

check out the ICK blood or GK or some Gotti blood they have some HUGE DOGS that are crazy big... (ironcrosskennles.com) Disiple is a good looking dog just huge... lol well the Bullie pocket pits are ... well Fat and short way too fat... and short... but they look big.... LMAO

some standards are just completly ecnored you know and some are still there but there is such a different veriaty of different size style and what not there is no standared left... none !!
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:44 pm

here is another reply that i thought you guys might like...
""Do you honestly believe these dogs aren't being fought to test gameness today?"

Most game dog owners or breeders do not game test stock anymore. Now I said Most not all. And the ones that still do are getting locked up (or eventually will).
I use to be into game bred dogs and I still have relatives that own game lines. Do they fight there dogs, no. Do they game test stock before breeding, no. The reason why game dogs will sell are the same reasons why some people will buy bully lines, PEDIGREES. People will by a tightly bred Jeep, Frisco, Garner, Bolio, or Eli dog as quickly as someone will buy a tightly bred RE, Gotti, GK, Butthead, etc. Its about pedigrees and great breedings that dogs sell.
My take on it is this..
Yes APBT's were originally bred for function and not looks. But now most people who buy APBT's as pups or adults, the "looks" of the dog play a major role in there decision. The only people that really care on gameness are the really hardcore, game, "keep scratchin or die" type folks.

ADBA and UKC recognizes the APBT
AKC does not recognize APBT as a breed but recognizes Am Staff.
All three have different conformation standards.
The UKC conformation standard is WAY different than the ADBA standard but there both APBT's. You either like the ADBA standard APBT or the UKC standard.
The bully-style APBT fits more to the UKC standard. I know there are people on this boad that show UKC. Examples of UKC APBT'S would be Manu who is UKC pointed, GR CH Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles, CH Razors Edge Inna Rage, GR. CH. Razors Edge Sadey’s Paddington and lets not forget about the legendary CH. Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo. By UKC standards all the above dogs are APBT'S BULLY-STYLE!!!
Now some Bully-style APBT's are so extreme that we like the looks, but the dog would never win a conformation title at a UKC event. Thats where the ABKC comes in, (your dog could have a severe kink and still win there).
But if you want an ADBA style dog go buy one.
point is
ADBA, UKC, game, bully, all different shapes, sizes, colors, all APBT's.
and when it comes to BSL, bully or not, the law would consider them all "pitbulls"." clubbully
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:53 pm

"Believe it or not all bully bloodlines have incorporated other dog breeds. I strongly believe that bloodlines like GK, Iron Cross, and Creekside have added mastiff blood to increase size, which makes them something else. I also believe that the two most popular bully bloodlines Razors Edge and Gottiline have added a little bulldog, those traits are just more prevalent in the Gotti bloodline, because of the way they're bred and the amount bulldog blood used. Can't believe everything you see in the pedigree, because of all the paper hanging. You also can't judge whether a bully is a pure APBT/AmStaff cross by looking at it. You're right, these bullies don't get a lot of attention, because they're not bullied out, but they are not a lot of them. I have seen some large AmStaffs, but they didn't get that way in only one or two generations of breeding. There are also rumors surrounding game bloodlines too, like Whopper and Gator that are believed to have mastiff mixed in. The Watchdog bloodline known for being a great catch dog is rumored has American Bulldog mixed into the bloodlines to increase it's effectiveness as a catch dog. You said that the AKC didn't allow pit bulls into their registry, but that's not true. They registered UKC APBTs as AKC AmStaffs due to its popularity in America, but they didn't like the name Pit Bull because they felt that the name reminded people of the dog fighting history of the breed that was looked at negatively, so they came up with the name American Staffordshire Terrier. They didn't close there stud books until decades later, after two breeds that were once consider to be the same thing, became two different breeds (physically, temperament...etc.) after generations of breeding. I agree with you that they should do some genetic testing to find out what American Bullies really are, and I'm willing to bet only about 10% of them are just an APBT/AmStaff cross."
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:57 pm

That's a awesome post Masterpiece, but one thing that comes to mind if people say that any bulldog and terrier cross would make the dog we know as a pit bull today. I'm going to use a parrable so to speak "most of us that have a small bit of understanding about the automobile industry understand that the "Toyota Camry" and a "Lexus" have interchangeable parts and functions a lot in the same way, but why is it that the lexus price tag is far more than that of a camry b/c the name goes back further to recognize a quality that was once very important and in a time when quality outweighs quanity the name of a car means more than the car itself. Now back to dogs although there is not a recognized breed as "pit bull" it's understood that the American Pitbull terrier is the "Pit Bull" dog that people refer to when the name pit bull is mention, and people by the name pitbull b/c it once represented quality that was unmatched by any other breed on the face of the planet. To register a dog as Bandog or American Bully and try sale it from a vitually unknown registry like ABKC would be figurative suicide b/c the dog would not sale for the ridiculous prices that some people pay for these dogs. Many breeders sale a dog for more money b/c it's faded black or "blue" as it's referred too, this trait is no more rare than any of the others. And anyone that believed the Whopper line of dogs to be game dogs honestly have no clue about a pit bull to began with, so I won't even eleborate on that part LOL. Thanks again for posting.
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Masterpiece



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:32 pm

SOUNDS GREAT I LOVE YOUR RESPONSES THEY MAKE A LOT OF SENCE FOR ME WHO IS STILL NEW IN THIS BREED AND STILL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY AND THE ORIGINAL LINES AND PURPOSE WICH SEEMS TO BE LOST BUT AT THE SAME TIME I UNDERSTAND WHY ITS LOST YOU KNOW!! THANK YOU SO MUCH YOU HAVE EDUCATED ME MORE THEN YOU KNOW LOL I STILL HAVE LOTS TO LEARN AND LOTS TO RESEARCH LOL!

PS on a side note the ICK dogs are being sold for 10k to 15k.... i would never pay that much for a dog... no offence to any one but are you freaken serious... lol anyway some people charge this much because people will pay for it...
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:22 pm

LOL wow are u serious I agree that if someone is paying that kind of money for a dog they are either filthy rich or completely insane LOL. And likewise I've learned from your post, you have some very educated responses regarding this. Most times on this issue it turns into my dog is better than yours type convo which is pointless b/c in the light of the law they are all indeed the same dog.
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: What's your opinion   Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:28 pm

Oh and like you i'm also new to this breed I've only been dealing w/ them close to 10 years now and 10 years is still relatively new in this game b/c u never stop learning.
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