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 Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?

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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:22 am

I was recently told by someone who claims that irresponsible breeding IS NOT the reason our breed is in the shape it is today. I for one totally disagree with this. Pumping out pups for no reason other than you want some is a shame as far as I'm concerned. Breeding dogs so young they haven't even turned a year old, and things of this nature. Never giving a second thought to how many pups these pups will grow up and have......and so on and so on. Then to see people who have been on other boards preaching against this type of breeding flip sides just to be part of the crowd is almost sickening.

I would like your input and thoughts on the issue. Let's see what everybody thinks about it. Gee for some reason I feel I'll stand alone on the issue, but that's fine. I've never been one to feel the need to please others just to be a part of the crowd.
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lovemypits
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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:50 am

Well.. I'm tired so I may have more to say on this issue tomorrow but, I can say one thing I do not like is when a person has a dog that is not breed worthy and breeds them just cuz they want a dog just like the one they currently have.

Some know I went through this situation, and of course the person that bred the dogs together were out of the dogs lives before the pups were even born, and guess who was left to take care of it? The thing is, none of the puppies grew up to be anything like Harley, the whole reason for the breeding in the first place!

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suki
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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:52 am

First off, i'd like to reply to a few things, namely and collectively, since you chose to incorporate them into this thread, ... this: "Then to see people who have been on other boards preaching against this type of breeding flip sides just to be part of the crowd is almost sickening". ...This: " Let's see what everybody thinks about it. Gee for some reason I feel I'll stand alone on the issue, but that's fine" and ...this: "I've never been one to feel the need to please others just to be a part of the crowd".

i can't help but wonder why you feel continuous need to add sarcastic and derrogatory remarks into your threads and replies. ??? I don't recall anyone on here saying irresponsible breeding is ok="flipsiding". If specific questions are asked, is it not 'ok' to answer that question with a specific reply? ?? or, is that, in your book, "flipsiding" to crowd please?... and Thank you for informing us you're not one who feels the need to be "part, (yet again) of the crowd". so, tx for that info. and, if you've the feeling you're going to "stand alone on this issue", perhaps the lack of replies you may receive will, be due, in part, for posessing this very attitude ~standing alone~...no need for the sarcasim, some times...

now to get to your post~
my feeling is, irresponsible breeding is almost 100% of the reason this breed is in the state it's in. irresponsible breeding comes from irresponsible owners~people who hear those dead presidents talking, and don't really give a flying $hit about where the pups they're allowing to be born, are going to.
Of course EVERY breeder should abide, adhere to and strictly follow a breeder's code of ethics . My personal feeling is a bitch shouldn't even be bred until she's 3. That's just a quirk of mine. I'm in the business of saving animals for a living. Nothing is more discouraging, sadder or hits you straighter in the heart than putting an animal "down" cuz they simply don't have an owner that cares, or a place to live. they're simply unwanted, and, sadder, they didn't ask for this. So, yes, a VERY strong code of ethics should be, actually, REwritten in regards to APBT's. "Pit Bulls" are, without question, in most cases, bred with ignorance and with a complete disregard concerning and their future. It's pathetically sad, this breed's demise. i'd even be willing to say, about 65-70% of the so called "breeder's " out there shouldn't be breeding. If you've no intention on breeding your animal, spay or neuter it to eliminate ANY potential "accident". To say an accident happened "again and again", no, i'm sorry, i don't buy it. Once is a fluke, and twice is a pattern. Once=shame on you, twice=shame on me for not convincing you to 'fix' your dog....
Perhaps if more responsible, caring, GOOD hearted breeders existed, then we wouldn't have, this, (and this being only one agency)
Welcome to Petfinder.com! The temporary home of 245,336 adoptable pets. 18,500, of which, are "pit bull" types. Pretty high amount, and this is only ONE agency! So, take a guess as to how these numbers got so high, and continue to climb? No doubt, irresponsible breeders~i have to agree.
Due to this breed's tainted reputation, due to over breeding and irresponsible owner's, as mentioned, i DO feel a stricter code of ethics should be written up, and be specific, inparticulr, to the APBT and American Staffordshire Terrier, to help curb and dissuade, what i deem, are primarily selfish breedings. Until man's love of the APBT superseeds his love for the almighty dollar, this breed will, undoubtably, continue to be flushed down the toilet...
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Michele



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:43 pm

I've always said this and will stick by it. If you are not breeding to better/preserve the breed, you have no business breeding.
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:40 pm

suki wrote:
First off, i'd like to reply to a few things, namely and collectively, since you chose to incorporate them into this thread, ... this: "Then to see people who have been on other boards preaching against this type of breeding flip sides just to be part of the crowd is almost sickening". ...This: " Let's see what everybody thinks about it. Gee for some reason I feel I'll stand alone on the issue, but that's fine" and ...this: "I've never been one to feel the need to please others just to be a part of the crowd".

i can't help but wonder why you feel continuous need to add sarcastic and derrogatory remarks into your threads and replies. ??? I don't recall anyone on here saying irresponsible breeding is ok="flipsiding". If specific questions are asked, is it not 'ok' to answer that question with a specific reply? ?? or, is that, in your book, "flipsiding" to crowd please?... and Thank you for informing us you're not one who feels the need to be "part, (yet again) of the crowd". so, tx for that info. and, if you've the feeling you're going to "stand alone on this issue", perhaps the lack of replies you may receive will, be due, in part, for posessing this very attitude ~standing alone~...no need for the sarcasim, some times...


please stay on topic. seems you cannot practice what you preach. i guess double standards are a bad habit you learned somewhere else moderating.
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suki
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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:08 pm

Boogieman wrote:
suki wrote:



please stay on topic. seems you cannot practice what you preach. i guess double standards are a bad habit you learned somewhere else moderating.

since you brought this up publically, i will address it publically~
nah, it simply seems as tho you avoid giving reasons as to why you write what you do.
my ENTIRE post was based RIGHT OFF of yours... and YOUR very own words!
but there again, you say derragatory things, then wonder why people have an "attitude" towards you and your posts....

seems as tho YOU canNOT practice what you preach!
double standard????? again, i quoted YOUR words! if YOU have a problem with someone copying/pasting what YOU'VE written, then DON'T write it! plain and simple.

and now, YOU
keep this topic on track. if you've a reply to this, send it via a PM, or this thread will be closed!!!
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mindovermatter



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:36 pm

Ok i am going to adress this post..

Boogieman.. I do feel that people breeding willy nilly is hurting our breed.. I also feel that breeders are not screening people properly as to where dogs are placed and are not following up on puppies and enforcing contracts..

There are times when accidents happen and we can only guide and educate those who come to us as to how to deal with what has happened.

To attack someone or to try and make them feel like an idiot when they have made a mistake only hurts the cause it doesn't help it.

When people are attacked they tend to leave the place where they were attacked at and tend to feel uncomfortable.

The goal is to educate them with a steady hand and try and guide them in the right direction. The best way to do this is with information.

I have talked to many people on the internet that have come to me with breeding questions and issues and have spent countless HOURS explaining why dogs should or should not be bred.. what tests should be done what ages dogs should be.

I have also spent many hours educating people that are looking for puppies or dogs.. EDUCATING them as to what is a good breeder and what is not and telling them about rescue.

If we Stand on a soap box and look down at them and preach they are less likely to listen.

To ask these people questions in a constructive manner and to get them thinking is the best way to get the wheels turning.

We will not be able to sway everyone but the old saying goes " You catch more flys with honey then you do vineager"


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lovemypits
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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:44 pm

VERY good post Tonya, thank you.

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mindovermatter



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:58 pm

Ok i am going to post the RULES for this site RIGHT here on this topic.. and i will highlight the ones that are being broken in this post by more then one person..


Do not publicly bash someone for any reason.

1.
This is a group for pit bull owners and we all know how many breeds
fall under the category of pit bull. No need to bash someone over
owning a bully, game dog, pit mix, ect..

2. Topics discussed in
other sites and forums must be kept there unless itr's an informative
post. But do not bring unwanted drama to this site.


3. Do not threaten someones life.

4. If you have a problem with someone then take it to private messaging but dont let it get out of hand.

5. If you do not like something that is being discussed then stay out of it if you can't debate like an adult.

6. If you are being harassed by a member just let me and/or a moderator know about it and it will dealt with it accordingly.

7. Do NOT post yours or anyone elses phone number, full name, or e-mail add. unless in a BSL or similar related topic.

8. NO posting of nude images and please keep the profanity to a bare minimum.

9. Don't be an ASS Wink ...


here is some of what has been posted here that is cause for concern..

First
off, i'd like to reply to a few things, namely and collectively, since
you chose to incorporate them into this thread, ... this: "Then to see
people who have been on other boards preaching against this type of
breeding flip sides just to be part of the crowd is almost sickening".
...This: " Let's see what everybody thinks about it. Gee for some
reason I feel I'll stand alone on the issue, but that's fine" and
...this: "I've never been one to feel the need to please others just to
be a part of the crowd".

i can't help but wonder why you feel
continuous need to add sarcastic and derrogatory remarks into your
threads and replies. ??? I don't recall anyone on here saying
irresponsible breeding is ok="flipsiding". If specific questions are
asked, is it not 'ok' to answer that question with a specific reply? ??
or, is that, in your book, "flipsiding" to crowd please?... and Thank
you for informing us you're not one who feels the need to be "part,
(yet again) of the crowd". so, tx for that info. and, if you've the
feeling you're going to "stand alone on this issue", perhaps the lack
of replies you may receive will, be due, in part, for posessing this
very attitude ~standing alone~...no need for the sarcasim, some times...


please
stay on topic. seems you cannot practice what you preach. i guess
double standards are a bad habit you learned somewhere else moderating.


No one on this borad is above the rules ... it doesn't matter who you know or who you are we all have to follow the RULES .. keep this in mind when posting on this board.
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lovemypits
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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:56 am

I think there is a valid question here... lets just keep it on topic or go to PM's.

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jason r



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:50 am

[quote="Boogieman"]I was recently told by someone who claims that irresponsible breeding IS NOT the reason our breed is in the shape it is today. quote] curious,what reason did that person give you, if it isnt irresponsible breeding.
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:31 am

[quote="jason r"]
Boogieman wrote:
I was recently told by someone who claims that irresponsible breeding IS NOT the reason our breed is in the shape it is today. quote] curious,what reason did that person give you, if it isnt irresponsible breeding.
They didn't give any! Just that this was not destroying it when I was discussing irresponsible breeding.
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:58 pm

Of course irresponsible breeding is what is hurting this breed the most. But I think it's fair to say that most people assume irresponsible breeding is the same as someone who breeds a large quanity of pups yearly, IMO that these are seperate entities, a responsible breeder that knows the art of breeding good genetics should not be held to the same standards as a worthless BYB. If breeding was left to the responsible dogmen/dogwomen, then these great dogs would be in good hands today instead of anyone being able to own the dog. Although we would like to place the entire responsibility on the breeder at what point do we say hey everyone needs to be responsible, b/c although a buyer puts on a good face when they come to purchase a pup, the truth of the matter is the breeder honestly has no idea of how the pup is being raised or trained after it leaves his possession. And although we like to put clauses and stipulations in these puppy contracts, the truth of the matter if some idiot choose to make his/her dog Human aggressive or even fight the dog then the buyer can't legally go back and take the dog b/c when cash is exchange the animal becomes the property of the buyer. With that being said, I think that everyone is responsible for the dogs being in the state which they have become, not just the breeders but the buyer also.
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:01 pm

alfisher3 wrote:
Of course irresponsible breeding is what is hurting this breed the most. But I think it's fair to say that most people assume irresponsible breeding is the same as someone who breeds a large quanity of pups yearly, IMO that these are seperate entities, a responsible breeder that knows the art of breeding good genetics should not be held to the same standards as a worthless BYB. If breeding was left to the responsible dogmen/dogwomen, then these great dogs would be in good hands today instead of anyone being able to own the dog. Although we would like to place the entire responsibility on the breeder at what point do we say hey everyone needs to be responsible, b/c although a buyer puts on a good face when they come to purchase a pup, the truth of the matter is the breeder honestly has no idea of how the pup is being raised or trained after it leaves his possession. And although we like to put clauses and stipulations in these puppy contracts, the truth of the matter if some idiot choose to make his/her dog Human aggressive or even fight the dog then the buyer can't legally go back and take the dog b/c when cash is exchange the animal becomes the property of the buyer. With that being said, I think that everyone is responsible for the dogs being in the state which they have become, not just the breeders but the buyer also.
Very good post. I did not say it was the only thing, just asked if it was hurting our breed. While I do agree with most everything you wrote, I also would like to point out that some of these so called dog men of today are really no better than a worthless byb. Of course they do produce quality animals compared to the mutts you will get from a byb, but I once saw a well respected dog man having 23 litters advertised for sale at once. Now realize this is only a fraction of what he produces in a year! This is one of the respected members of the dog world and they will sell to ANYBODY with the cash. The sad trend is many of them are starting to do it since they can't make money like they did back in the day with their dogs. Like I said, it's quality stock, but they are still putting dogs in the hands of anyone who will buy it.

Thanks for your input!
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:08 pm

Boogie you are w/o a doubt 100% correct about some of the dogmen becoming irresponsible, and I will point out the guy your talking about w/o having to mention his name b/c the Chinamon bloodline can be seen on thousands of dogs today, it's beyond the word over produced. And if this is the same breeder your referring to saying he has 23 litters on the ground at once that's rediculous, if he's a dogmen or BYB I don't see a reason anyone should have that many litters on the ground at once or even throughout the entire year. Most dogmen I have ran across will only breed when it's necessary for them to enhance a trait or tighten a bloodline of theirs, but for someone to have 23 litters on the ground at once is pointless, did he have 2 for 1 sales going on as well LOL. But seriously I think that hurts a breed tremendously.
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shadowwolf



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:07 am

Unfortunately, it's a combination of both bad breeding (breeding willy nilly and dogs who aren't even up to breed standard, etc.) and bad owners who put these dogs in situations they should not have been in the first place. It's our job as breed advocates to protect this breed from those who wish to exterminate it.
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EDOGZ818



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Thu May 15, 2008 6:10 pm

Of course irresponsible breeding has ruined the breed. The 23 litter dogman.... well if he is producing quality , I can understand him filling the need for "GAMEBRED" APBT's , in light of the void let by people who breed for size , color , ...etc. ( Anything but GAMENESS )

Cur breeders are the scourge of the APBT.
Peddlers ? Depends on what they are peddling.
High Quality Gamedogs or sticking two dogs together because they have papers , or look a certain way.
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steven



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:00 pm

why dont we as true pit lovers put a stop to all irresponsible breeding!have the pups fixed before sold or charge a fee for the buyer and contract so you the breeder have a say in the dog to be bread with that way we as a whole can help keep our breed the best
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pitmamma
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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:25 pm

Not all of course, but some breeders do have such stipulations in their contracts, the problem is...most don't follow up on the dogs and/or the contracts. Selling to whomever will pay the price.
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:39 pm

steven wrote:
why dont we as true pit lovers put a stop to all irresponsible breeding!have the pups fixed before sold or charge a fee for the buyer and contract so you the breeder have a say in the dog to be bread with that way we as a whole can help keep our breed the best
Wow that's a funny statement for somebody that posted this!

steven wrote:
I breed zebo and coby what other line should i be on the look out for. or should i stay in the 2 types?

First of all you don't even know the true name of one of the most famous men in the history of the breed, and then even asking the question proves you are only adding to the problem. When people breed it should be with a purpose. You should have a goal and an end result in mind. A purpose which is to better the stock you have than when you got it. It's not just throwing a couple dogs together to make some pups cuz you want some. Doing something with them other than padding your pocket with cash. From the looks of it, you've got plenty of research to do before you EVER do any breeding. I got my first dog in 1984 and MIGHT be doing my first ever breeding this year. Maybe a little more patience and a WHOLE LOT more education on your part would be a better idea instead of being on "the look out" for more blodlines to breed! Sad
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:45 pm

Well said Boogie, it takes plenty of time and patient, and most true pitbull fanciers can spot a fraud BYB a mile away and they won't line his pocket with cash. Steve there are several members on here that have valued information that might help with your questions Boogieman and Midwest_showdogs would be my first one stop shop these guys have been around the dogs longer than some of the members have been alive, me personally I only have 10 years with the breed, I was just in a fortunate place, living near many of the legendary dogmen that many guys read about on the sites today, so I've had access to some decent dogs in a short period of time.
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steven



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:46 am

boggieman well ive corrected my typing mistake but its not easy to find another line that can at the least match my dogs. but my breedings are well planed and all my dogs are sold under contract so my lines are not crossed out of unless its with the best the week is of no use to me
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alfisher3



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:18 am

Steve I'm not trying to hate or anything but you said your lines cannot be matched, as I recall you said you don't have a titled dog. And if you have a Zebo/Colby line try crossing it w/ a redboy line since a tight redboy dog is nothing more than a colby anyway and most of the time redboy works well as a outcross if your breeding performance dogs.
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Boogieman



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:16 am

steven wrote:
boggieman well ive corrected my typing mistake but its not easy to find another line that can at the least match my dogs. but my breedings are well planed and all my dogs are sold under contract so my lines are not crossed out of unless its with the best the week is of no use to me

steven, no disrespect intended, but i find it very hard to believe you. from the looks of your posts you simply threw out a couple names you've heard or been told. if you were educated on the dog zebo, or on the colby line, I find it very hard to believe you would need to be on a forum asking for other lines to breed it to. there are a buttload of bloodlines, some that may cross well, others that may not. as far as finding another line to equal your dogs.....lol well that would be a matter of opinion i guess. trust me there's plenty of fine lines, many being of equal caliber in many peoples eyes. it's all a personal opinion when it comes down to it though. if you're so happy with the 2 lines you got and can't find anything to equal it, why not just continue breeding what you have? why cross it with anything? there's just too much of your plan i fail to understand.
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CoolHandJean



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PostSubject: Re: Is irresponsible breeding hurting our breed?   Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:15 pm

As a person who has done an irresponsible breeding, I do believe that my acts hurt our breed. There are many things I regret about what I did, and would never breed another dog again, unless it was totally proven worth breeding. Just my two cents, since I have been on both sides of the fence.


Last edited by CoolHandJean on Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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